Hunters begin another season of recklessness

Penny Little argues that legislation needs tightening if foxhunters and others are not to continue to flout the law which banned their bloodthirsty pursuits

by Tribune Web Editor
Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008

Penny Little argues that legislation needs tightening if foxhunters and others are not to continue to flout the law which banned their bloodthirsty pursuits

THE Collins Dictionary defines “reckless” as “having or showing no regard for danger or consequences”. A reckless driver would suffer the consequences if his or her actions resulted in injury to others and a reckless person in charge of dogs would have to suffer the consequences if those dogs attacked someone. No doubt, those guilty of such offences would say that they did not intend to cause harm. However, their reckless behaviour and their irresponsibility would be punished regardless. We all know this and live with it as part of the normal workings of the law of the land.

But if you are a foxhunter in this country, where hunting has been illegal since 2005, you need have no such qualms. This is because the Hunting Act does not include a reckless behaviour clause or contain those three magic words “cause or permit”, which are a feature of much other legislation.

Hunt monitors nationally have submitted many pieces of clear, filmed evidence of hounds chasing and killing foxes to the police. This evidence has been rejected by the Crown Prosecution Service, because the hunts have claimed the incidents were “accidents”.

As the foxhunts enter their fourth season since the Hunting Act came into force, the media is full of the hunters’ hubris. It is worth studying some of their claims.

In an article in the Daily Telegraph on October 30, the treasurer of the Exmoor Foxhounds said: “The art of the trail hunt is to replicate as much as possible an actual foxhunt. Four trail setters run across fields, through ditches and over hedgerows in an effort to mirror the movements of a hunted  animal.”

The article continued: “On the morning of today’s hunt, teams are out laying a number of trails and [the hunter] has only a slight idea where they will start and finish.”

Hunters claim to mimic the traditional foxhunt by laying a scent  through ditches and hedges – precisely where foxes are likely to be found. Surely, this is recklessness of a high order?

We further learn that the huntsman – the person actually in charge of a pack of around 40 unleashed dogs – has only a “slight idea” where these trails have been laid. So what if the hounds are running on cry, clearly hunting? Should they be stopped because they are onto a fox which they have found in these ditches and hedges? Or is it just a trail? The huntsman claims not to know. But this is utter recklessness, endangering not only the foxes, but also the general public, as hounds may career onto roads and into gardens after what proves to be – surprise, surprise – a fox.

Horse and Hound, the hunters’ bible, recently published an article entitled “What all huntsmen need to know”. In this, the huntsman with the Exmoor Foxhounds said: “Since the 2004 Hunting Act, I have to be confident before I leave the meet that I’ll have enough evidence to use in my favour should it be necessary to defend my actions in a court of law… A good way to end a line is to stuff the trail down a hole so hounds can ‘mark to ground’ at an old fox earth in much the same way as if a fox had been run to ground. Foxes will almost certainly be viewed on a day’s trailing and may be seen crossing or following a similar line to that of a trail before hounds arrive on the spot.”

We are told that a “trail” sometimes ends down a foxhole. It’s just tough luck if there happens to be a fox in it. Presumably it’s just another “accident”.

Readers of Horse and Hound were also informed that foxes dash around all over the place and actually run over the same area on which a trail has already been laid. It seems that not only are hunters reckless, but they claim that foxes can be, too.

In the Independent on Sunday on November 2, Julia Caffyn, master of the Southdown and Eridge Foxhunt said: “The whole thing is a farce…We ride according to the letter of the law, laying down a trail with a fox brush dipped in urine, but the law is unenforceable anyway.”

A “brush” is what foxhunters call a fox’s tail and the urine is a fox’s urine. This is no way to deter hounds from getting excited by a fox’s scent. Reckless? Of course it is. In the same article, an unidentified hunt regular from the north of England was quoted as saying: “Yes, foxes do get killed in the old way.”

The Master of Draghounds Association’s website defines the difference between drag hunting and “trail” hunting. Apparently: “Whereas most drag hunt lines start in open country at a known spot and follow a pre-determined route, trail hunting involves simulating the search in cover for a scent to follow.”

“Cover” means woods, maize fields, reeds and brambles. “Cover” is where foxes live. “Cover” has been where foxhunts have gone to find foxes since the practice began. “Cover” is not the place to lay a trail if you want to stop hounds finding foxes. But we are told that trails are laid in hedges, ditches, and fox holes. This is extreme recklessness.

It is worth noting that there is no known recorded incident of a genuine drag hunt being involved in an incident of “hunt havoc” – in other words, when hounds run riot over roads and so on – whereas such incidents since the ban which involve so-called trail hunts are numerous. (For details of these, see the Protect Our Wild Animals website on www.powa.org.uk)

There are two ways of looking at this. One is that trail hunting is a complete fiction used as a cover for illegal foxhunting, with the alleged similarities to foxhunting due to the fact that it is foxhunting. Hunt monitors are convinced this is the case.

The other option is to see that the practices of “trail” hunting as described by the hunters themselves are so utterly reckless that they are virtually certain to result in “accidents” – and many of them.

Either way, this outrageous situation can be resolved by amending the Hunting Act to ensure it deals with this reckless behaviour by making it an offence to “cause or permit a dog to hunt, attack, injure or kill a wild mammal”. That would remove the possibility of an accident being used as a defence and it would remove the need for intent to be proved in court.

It should be remembered that those who hunt hares also claim to lay a trail and any pursuit of hares is dismissed as the inevitable “accident”. Mink hunts can claim they set out to hunt rats (a preposterous defence, some may think) and that any mink pursued and killed by hounds was “accidental”.

When people pressed their MPs to ban hunting, they did not want a prohibition that would allow hunts to behave with such arrogance and deceit. They wanted the practice to be stopped, with genuine drag-hunting the only legal alternative.

At present, hunters as a group are behaving in a way that suggests they think they are above the law. They treat the law with utter contempt and seem to have a similar disregard for the democratic process that brought about the law.

It is time for MPs to revisit the legislation and make the small adjustment that would make the law fit for its purpose. Meanwhile, the proscribed quarry species continue to be hunted exactly as before the ban.

Penny Little is spokesperson for Protect Our Wild Animals

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  • Chris Gale

    Excellent article which describes the situation so well. Thanks to John McDonnell MP who is raising this issue within Parliament and for the excellent work of POWA to bring it to the attention of the public.
    The barbarism of the hunting fraternity must be stopped.

  • Chris Gale

    Excellent article which describes the situation so well. Thanks to John McDonnell MP who is raising this issue within Parliament and for the excellent work of POWA to bring it to the attention of the public.
    The barbarism of the hunting fraternity must be stopped.

  • Chris Gale

    Excellent article which describes the situation so well. Thanks to John McDonnell MP who is raising this issue within Parliament and for the excellent work of POWA to bring it to the attention of the public.
    The barbarism of the hunting fraternity must be stopped.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I think the Hunting Act is a very bad law. I use my five dogs to flush out wild deer in order to help reduce the damage they do to my coppiced woodland. Wild deer can completely prevent coppiced woodland from regrowing.

    What I do is an entirely non lethal, welfare friendly means of dealing with the deer. Ihave done it for over ten years and I have never hurt a deer.

    The Hunting Act makes it illegal to flush out deer with dogs unless no more than two dogs are used and the deer are then shot.

    I have asked several labour MPs what the reason for this is and none of them know. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that the law should have some sort of rational basis.

    I just carry on breaking it. As far as I am concerned it is too stupid to obey.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I think the Hunting Act is a very bad law. I use my five dogs to flush out wild deer in order to help reduce the damage they do to my coppiced woodland. Wild deer can completely prevent coppiced woodland from regrowing.

    What I do is an entirely non lethal, welfare friendly means of dealing with the deer. Ihave done it for over ten years and I have never hurt a deer.

    The Hunting Act makes it illegal to flush out deer with dogs unless no more than two dogs are used and the deer are then shot.

    I have asked several labour MPs what the reason for this is and none of them know. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that the law should have some sort of rational basis.

    I just carry on breaking it. As far as I am concerned it is too stupid to obey.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I think the Hunting Act is a very bad law. I use my five dogs to flush out wild deer in order to help reduce the damage they do to my coppiced woodland. Wild deer can completely prevent coppiced woodland from regrowing.

    What I do is an entirely non lethal, welfare friendly means of dealing with the deer. Ihave done it for over ten years and I have never hurt a deer.

    The Hunting Act makes it illegal to flush out deer with dogs unless no more than two dogs are used and the deer are then shot.

    I have asked several labour MPs what the reason for this is and none of them know. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that the law should have some sort of rational basis.

    I just carry on breaking it. As far as I am concerned it is too stupid to obey.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    And as far as being reckless is concerned my dogs are always hunting in the undergrowth for whatever they can find. Am I to stop them doing that? That’s ridiculous. It is their natural behaviour.

    What people like Penny Little do not seem to realise is that predation of one animal on another is a totally normal part of nature. In fact in many ways predation is a good thing. It is where predation is removed that we have problems.

    For example the situation with deer would be much improved if we had wolves and lynx to hunt them down. Overall deer numbers would be reduced and old and sick deer would be culled. The same goes for foxes which would be preyed upon by Lynx.

    In actual fact where animals are hunted and preyed upon there are animal welfare benefits because the amount of suffering experienced by an animal when it is chased down and killed is significantly less than it would experience if it were to starve to death or die from disease.

    Take away predation whether natural or artificial and these means are the alternatives as populations expand to exhaust their natural resources.

    The laws around hunting are ridiculous. As a landowner I know better than Penny Little and John McDonnell how to manage the wildlife on my land and will continue doing so as I know best.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    And as far as being reckless is concerned my dogs are always hunting in the undergrowth for whatever they can find. Am I to stop them doing that? That’s ridiculous. It is their natural behaviour.

    What people like Penny Little do not seem to realise is that predation of one animal on another is a totally normal part of nature. In fact in many ways predation is a good thing. It is where predation is removed that we have problems.

    For example the situation with deer would be much improved if we had wolves and lynx to hunt them down. Overall deer numbers would be reduced and old and sick deer would be culled. The same goes for foxes which would be preyed upon by Lynx.

    In actual fact where animals are hunted and preyed upon there are animal welfare benefits because the amount of suffering experienced by an animal when it is chased down and killed is significantly less than it would experience if it were to starve to death or die from disease.

    Take away predation whether natural or artificial and these means are the alternatives as populations expand to exhaust their natural resources.

    The laws around hunting are ridiculous. As a landowner I know better than Penny Little and John McDonnell how to manage the wildlife on my land and will continue doing so as I know best.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    And as far as being reckless is concerned my dogs are always hunting in the undergrowth for whatever they can find. Am I to stop them doing that? That’s ridiculous. It is their natural behaviour.

    What people like Penny Little do not seem to realise is that predation of one animal on another is a totally normal part of nature. In fact in many ways predation is a good thing. It is where predation is removed that we have problems.

    For example the situation with deer would be much improved if we had wolves and lynx to hunt them down. Overall deer numbers would be reduced and old and sick deer would be culled. The same goes for foxes which would be preyed upon by Lynx.

    In actual fact where animals are hunted and preyed upon there are animal welfare benefits because the amount of suffering experienced by an animal when it is chased down and killed is significantly less than it would experience if it were to starve to death or die from disease.

    Take away predation whether natural or artificial and these means are the alternatives as populations expand to exhaust their natural resources.

    The laws around hunting are ridiculous. As a landowner I know better than Penny Little and John McDonnell how to manage the wildlife on my land and will continue doing so as I know best.

  • Jeremy Whaley

    Penny Little’s article shows just how dangerous it is to let people who know little about animal behaviour shape law regarding animals. Dogs chase animals. Fact. It doesn’t matter if it is a Pound or Pekenise, the instinct is there, as the anti hunting MP (at the time) Roy Hettersley famously found out when his dog attacked and killed a goose in a park. Was he reckless in walking his dog in a Park where he would know there would be other animals? Therefore should no-one ever walk any dog outside there garden? No Penny Liitle’s view and solution is simplistic and if the changes to the Hunting Act she wants were made, every dog owner in the country would be at risk of prosecution. “Intent” has to be proved for a prosecution to be successful, for the good reason that animals’ behaviours do not always, indeed frequently do not coincide with their owners’ intentions. The Hunting Act is bad law, not least because it tries to make one form of fox control illegal while permitting other methods that cause more suffering. Tinkering with it will just put more innocent people at risk of prosecution.

  • Jeremy Whaley

    Penny Little’s article shows just how dangerous it is to let people who know little about animal behaviour shape law regarding animals. Dogs chase animals. Fact. It doesn’t matter if it is a Pound or Pekenise, the instinct is there, as the anti hunting MP (at the time) Roy Hettersley famously found out when his dog attacked and killed a goose in a park. Was he reckless in walking his dog in a Park where he would know there would be other animals? Therefore should no-one ever walk any dog outside there garden? No Penny Liitle’s view and solution is simplistic and if the changes to the Hunting Act she wants were made, every dog owner in the country would be at risk of prosecution. “Intent” has to be proved for a prosecution to be successful, for the good reason that animals’ behaviours do not always, indeed frequently do not coincide with their owners’ intentions. The Hunting Act is bad law, not least because it tries to make one form of fox control illegal while permitting other methods that cause more suffering. Tinkering with it will just put more innocent people at risk of prosecution.

  • Jeremy Whaley

    Penny Little’s article shows just how dangerous it is to let people who know little about animal behaviour shape law regarding animals. Dogs chase animals. Fact. It doesn’t matter if it is a Pound or Pekenise, the instinct is there, as the anti hunting MP (at the time) Roy Hettersley famously found out when his dog attacked and killed a goose in a park. Was he reckless in walking his dog in a Park where he would know there would be other animals? Therefore should no-one ever walk any dog outside there garden? No Penny Liitle’s view and solution is simplistic and if the changes to the Hunting Act she wants were made, every dog owner in the country would be at risk of prosecution. “Intent” has to be proved for a prosecution to be successful, for the good reason that animals’ behaviours do not always, indeed frequently do not coincide with their owners’ intentions. The Hunting Act is bad law, not least because it tries to make one form of fox control illegal while permitting other methods that cause more suffering. Tinkering with it will just put more innocent people at risk of prosecution.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Exactly Jeremy. What we actually need is a law prohibiting deliberate cruelty to wild animals. This would be a fair and liberal law. My illegal activities should not be illegal because they are not cruel.

    It’s absurd to make something a criminal offence when there is nothing wrong with it. The law is unenforceable not because of some technicality or difficulty of proof but because it is ridiculous.

    Stupid ill thought out laws like the Hunting Act laws devalue the notion of crime.

    I break the Hunting Act with the full knowledge of the police. There is a fundamental right of civil disobedience against idiotic legislation such as this.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Exactly Jeremy. What we actually need is a law prohibiting deliberate cruelty to wild animals. This would be a fair and liberal law. My illegal activities should not be illegal because they are not cruel.

    It’s absurd to make something a criminal offence when there is nothing wrong with it. The law is unenforceable not because of some technicality or difficulty of proof but because it is ridiculous.

    Stupid ill thought out laws like the Hunting Act laws devalue the notion of crime.

    I break the Hunting Act with the full knowledge of the police. There is a fundamental right of civil disobedience against idiotic legislation such as this.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Exactly Jeremy. What we actually need is a law prohibiting deliberate cruelty to wild animals. This would be a fair and liberal law. My illegal activities should not be illegal because they are not cruel.

    It’s absurd to make something a criminal offence when there is nothing wrong with it. The law is unenforceable not because of some technicality or difficulty of proof but because it is ridiculous.

    Stupid ill thought out laws like the Hunting Act laws devalue the notion of crime.

    I break the Hunting Act with the full knowledge of the police. There is a fundamental right of civil disobedience against idiotic legislation such as this.

  • Joanne Marriage

    If people are taking their dogs out and disturbing our wildlife with them then they should be guilty of an offence. Dogs can be properly walked in the open on the lead without disturbing wildlife.

    People entering woodland, taking a zig zag route and allowing their dogs free rein of the lead are bound to cause a disturbance and this should be a criminal offence.

    Giles Bradshaw claims that he is not being cruel by flushing out deer. The truth is that flushing out deer is horribly cruel. If it were not why else would it be illegal. The level of cruelty involved is clearly shown by the fact that the law only allows deer to be flushed out if they are then shot.

    He goes on to claim that it is wrong that the law requires the deer to be shot. This is nonsense. The deer are required to be humanely destroyed once flushed out to alleviate suffering.

    All his ridiculous claims amount to is that he won’t obey the law because he doesn’t agree with it.

    The vast majority of the population and parliament support this law and people who flout it must be prosecuted.

  • Joanne Marriage

    If people are taking their dogs out and disturbing our wildlife with them then they should be guilty of an offence. Dogs can be properly walked in the open on the lead without disturbing wildlife.

    People entering woodland, taking a zig zag route and allowing their dogs free rein of the lead are bound to cause a disturbance and this should be a criminal offence.

    Giles Bradshaw claims that he is not being cruel by flushing out deer. The truth is that flushing out deer is horribly cruel. If it were not why else would it be illegal. The level of cruelty involved is clearly shown by the fact that the law only allows deer to be flushed out if they are then shot.

    He goes on to claim that it is wrong that the law requires the deer to be shot. This is nonsense. The deer are required to be humanely destroyed once flushed out to alleviate suffering.

    All his ridiculous claims amount to is that he won’t obey the law because he doesn’t agree with it.

    The vast majority of the population and parliament support this law and people who flout it must be prosecuted.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Joanne’s comments are ridiculous. What I do is humane wildlife management. I simply take my dogs into my woodland and any deer run out. It’s ridiculous only to make that legal if the deer are then shot. To make out that shooting the deer would be more humane than not shooting them is a totally stupid argument.

    It is impossible to coppice woodland successfully without having some means to manage the deer. The fact is I have found a non lethal way of doing so. It is not cruel and should not be illegal.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Joanne’s comments are ridiculous. What I do is humane wildlife management. I simply take my dogs into my woodland and any deer run out. It’s ridiculous only to make that legal if the deer are then shot. To make out that shooting the deer would be more humane than not shooting them is a totally stupid argument.

    It is impossible to coppice woodland successfully without having some means to manage the deer. The fact is I have found a non lethal way of doing so. It is not cruel and should not be illegal.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Joanne’s comments are ridiculous. What I do is humane wildlife management. I simply take my dogs into my woodland and any deer run out. It’s ridiculous only to make that legal if the deer are then shot. To make out that shooting the deer would be more humane than not shooting them is a totally stupid argument.

    It is impossible to coppice woodland successfully without having some means to manage the deer. The fact is I have found a non lethal way of doing so. It is not cruel and should not be illegal.

  • Joanne Marriage

    Again no real argument to support your case Giles.

    Can you answer one simple question? If it were not horribly cruel to enter a wood with dogs and flush out wild deer then why would parliament have made it illegal?

  • Joanne Marriage

    Again no real argument to support your case Giles.

    Can you answer one simple question? If it were not horribly cruel to enter a wood with dogs and flush out wild deer then why would parliament have made it illegal?

  • Joanne Marriage

    Again no real argument to support your case Giles.

    Can you answer one simple question? If it were not horribly cruel to enter a wood with dogs and flush out wild deer then why would parliament have made it illegal?

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I have no idea why they did that Joanne.

    It’s not up to me to attempt to justify absurd law and drawing conclusions about the cruelty of an action from a law that has no logical basis does not make any sense.

    Causing a deer to run off when it can easily escape without harm or hindrance is no more cruel than flushing out a pheasant. The bird can fly off so there is no cruelty. The deer can run off so there is no cruelty.

    It’s ironic that the anti bloodsports people think flushed out deer should have to be shot and yet are against shooting flushed out pheasants.

    Would you be in favour of making a law against recklessly flushing out pheasants without shooting them? That would be no more ridiculous.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I have no idea why they did that Joanne.

    It’s not up to me to attempt to justify absurd law and drawing conclusions about the cruelty of an action from a law that has no logical basis does not make any sense.

    Causing a deer to run off when it can easily escape without harm or hindrance is no more cruel than flushing out a pheasant. The bird can fly off so there is no cruelty. The deer can run off so there is no cruelty.

    It’s ironic that the anti bloodsports people think flushed out deer should have to be shot and yet are against shooting flushed out pheasants.

    Would you be in favour of making a law against recklessly flushing out pheasants without shooting them? That would be no more ridiculous.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I have no idea why they did that Joanne.

    It’s not up to me to attempt to justify absurd law and drawing conclusions about the cruelty of an action from a law that has no logical basis does not make any sense.

    Causing a deer to run off when it can easily escape without harm or hindrance is no more cruel than flushing out a pheasant. The bird can fly off so there is no cruelty. The deer can run off so there is no cruelty.

    It’s ironic that the anti bloodsports people think flushed out deer should have to be shot and yet are against shooting flushed out pheasants.

    Would you be in favour of making a law against recklessly flushing out pheasants without shooting them? That would be no more ridiculous.

  • John Eves

    Penny Little should be looking forward to the repeal of the idiotic Hunting Act. She’ll have something less to bother about afterwards.

  • John Eves

    Penny Little should be looking forward to the repeal of the idiotic Hunting Act. She’ll have something less to bother about afterwards.

  • Joanne Marriage

    Why would someone take there dogs into an area where there are likely to be pheasants?

    It is wrong to disturb wildlife and it deserves legal protection. Flushing out wildlife puts it in fear of its life and is therefore cruel.

  • Joanne Marriage

    Why would someone take there dogs into an area where there are likely to be pheasants?

    It is wrong to disturb wildlife and it deserves legal protection. Flushing out wildlife puts it in fear of its life and is therefore cruel.

  • Joanne Marriage

    Why would someone take there dogs into an area where there are likely to be pheasants?

    It is wrong to disturb wildlife and it deserves legal protection. Flushing out wildlife puts it in fear of its life and is therefore cruel.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Joanne you don’t seem to have a clue about country life. I am surrounded by countryside where there are pheasants, deer and many other animals. Wherever I go with my dogs I will flush out animals.

    To make it illegal to flush out animals with dogs whether recklessly or deliberately is patently absurd.

    To say I can only flush things out if I then shoot them takes absurdity to an entirely new level.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Joanne you don’t seem to have a clue about country life. I am surrounded by countryside where there are pheasants, deer and many other animals. Wherever I go with my dogs I will flush out animals.

    To make it illegal to flush out animals with dogs whether recklessly or deliberately is patently absurd.

    To say I can only flush things out if I then shoot them takes absurdity to an entirely new level.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Joanne you don’t seem to have a clue about country life. I am surrounded by countryside where there are pheasants, deer and many other animals. Wherever I go with my dogs I will flush out animals.

    To make it illegal to flush out animals with dogs whether recklessly or deliberately is patently absurd.

    To say I can only flush things out if I then shoot them takes absurdity to an entirely new level.

  • Reg Harris

    As someone who is involved with the control and management of deer I feel it is very important that there numbers are kept down. The Government acknowledges this.

    However if Giles wishes to use alternative non lethal means I do not understand why the law requires him to shoot the deer he disperses with his dogs.

  • Reg Harris

    As someone who is involved with the control and management of deer I feel it is very important that there numbers are kept down. The Government acknowledges this.

    However if Giles wishes to use alternative non lethal means I do not understand why the law requires him to shoot the deer he disperses with his dogs.

  • Reg Harris

    As someone who is involved with the control and management of deer I feel it is very important that there numbers are kept down. The Government acknowledges this.

    However if Giles wishes to use alternative non lethal means I do not understand why the law requires him to shoot the deer he disperses with his dogs.

  • Reg Harris

    As someone who is involved in the management of deer I believe it is very important to control the population.

    However if Giles wishes to employ a non lethal means I see no reason why what he does should be illegal.

    I don’t agree with stag hunting but simply dispersing deer with dogs is another matter whatsoever.

    Moving to a position where people could be prosecuted for recklessly flushing out deer would be unsupportable.

  • Reg Harris

    As someone who is involved in the management of deer I believe it is very important to control the population.

    However if Giles wishes to employ a non lethal means I see no reason why what he does should be illegal.

    I don’t agree with stag hunting but simply dispersing deer with dogs is another matter whatsoever.

    Moving to a position where people could be prosecuted for recklessly flushing out deer would be unsupportable.

  • Reg Harris

    As someone who is involved in the management of deer I believe it is very important to control the population.

    However if Giles wishes to employ a non lethal means I see no reason why what he does should be illegal.

    I don’t agree with stag hunting but simply dispersing deer with dogs is another matter whatsoever.

    Moving to a position where people could be prosecuted for recklessly flushing out deer would be unsupportable.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Prosecuting me for deliberately flushing out deer with my five dogs is unsupportable as it is Reg.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Prosecuting me for deliberately flushing out deer with my five dogs is unsupportable as it is Reg.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Prosecuting me for deliberately flushing out deer with my five dogs is unsupportable as it is Reg.

  • Alan

    I really cannot believe that anyone can be so ignorant as Penny Little. Does she not realise that hunting people are the very embodiment of England? Does she not realise that hunting with hounds is the most humane form of fox control? Does she not realise that the hunting Act of 2004 has NOTHING to do with animal welfare, and EVERYTHING to do with prejudice, spite and ignorance? As for so-called Hunt Monitors…doesnt she know that they are only one step removed from the thousands of Nazi concentration camp guards who did it ‘because they had no choice.’
    Penny, please find out something about your subject before you air your vitriolic prejudices.

  • Alan

    I really cannot believe that anyone can be so ignorant as Penny Little. Does she not realise that hunting people are the very embodiment of England? Does she not realise that hunting with hounds is the most humane form of fox control? Does she not realise that the hunting Act of 2004 has NOTHING to do with animal welfare, and EVERYTHING to do with prejudice, spite and ignorance? As for so-called Hunt Monitors…doesnt she know that they are only one step removed from the thousands of Nazi concentration camp guards who did it ‘because they had no choice.’
    Penny, please find out something about your subject before you air your vitriolic prejudices.

  • Alan

    I really cannot believe that anyone can be so ignorant as Penny Little. Does she not realise that hunting people are the very embodiment of England? Does she not realise that hunting with hounds is the most humane form of fox control? Does she not realise that the hunting Act of 2004 has NOTHING to do with animal welfare, and EVERYTHING to do with prejudice, spite and ignorance? As for so-called Hunt Monitors…doesnt she know that they are only one step removed from the thousands of Nazi concentration camp guards who did it ‘because they had no choice.’
    Penny, please find out something about your subject before you air your vitriolic prejudices.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    On Sunday Morning I will be out as usual flushing deer with my dogs.

    What exactly do supporters of this law want to do about that?

    7.00 am whippenscott rose ash ex36 4pp

    What are you going to do? Call the police?

  • Giles Bradshaw

    On Sunday Morning I will be out as usual flushing deer with my dogs.

    What exactly do supporters of this law want to do about that?

    7.00 am whippenscott rose ash ex36 4pp

    What are you going to do? Call the police?

  • Giles Bradshaw

    On Sunday Morning I will be out as usual flushing deer with my dogs.

    What exactly do supporters of this law want to do about that?

    7.00 am whippenscott rose ash ex36 4pp

    What are you going to do? Call the police?

  • Adam Wallace

    One question for Joanne Marriage. Do you even know what is meant by “Coppicing Woodland”? [Without resorting to Google].

    The hunting act is an absurdity, passed by a government who care not one jot for the views rural people because there are “no votes in the countryside”.

    It is supported by an urbanised population, who due to their unnatural seperation from all forms of country life want to treat all animals as if they were cuddly teddy bears. Those who object to hunting as “cruel” are the respectable end of the line that leads to the morons who released mink into our countryside for “animal liberation”, without any thought of how a North American carnivore lacking ANY natural predator, would decimate our wildlife.

    Reppeal this ridiculous Act, that is little more than Class War dressed up as “animal protection”, & defended by false statistics from those who know not what they talk about.

    That is amply shown by Joanne’s comments that non-lethal flushing out deer is stupid since they would be “tak[ing] there dogs into an area where there are likely to be pheasants?” -Game birds bred to be killed.

  • Adam Wallace

    One question for Joanne Marriage. Do you even know what is meant by “Coppicing Woodland”? [Without resorting to Google].

    The hunting act is an absurdity, passed by a government who care not one jot for the views rural people because there are “no votes in the countryside”.

    It is supported by an urbanised population, who due to their unnatural seperation from all forms of country life want to treat all animals as if they were cuddly teddy bears. Those who object to hunting as “cruel” are the respectable end of the line that leads to the morons who released mink into our countryside for “animal liberation”, without any thought of how a North American carnivore lacking ANY natural predator, would decimate our wildlife.

    Reppeal this ridiculous Act, that is little more than Class War dressed up as “animal protection”, & defended by false statistics from those who know not what they talk about.

    That is amply shown by Joanne’s comments that non-lethal flushing out deer is stupid since they would be “tak[ing] there dogs into an area where there are likely to be pheasants?” -Game birds bred to be killed.

  • Adam Wallace

    One question for Joanne Marriage. Do you even know what is meant by “Coppicing Woodland”? [Without resorting to Google].

    The hunting act is an absurdity, passed by a government who care not one jot for the views rural people because there are “no votes in the countryside”.

    It is supported by an urbanised population, who due to their unnatural seperation from all forms of country life want to treat all animals as if they were cuddly teddy bears. Those who object to hunting as “cruel” are the respectable end of the line that leads to the morons who released mink into our countryside for “animal liberation”, without any thought of how a North American carnivore lacking ANY natural predator, would decimate our wildlife.

    Reppeal this ridiculous Act, that is little more than Class War dressed up as “animal protection”, & defended by false statistics from those who know not what they talk about.

    That is amply shown by Joanne’s comments that non-lethal flushing out deer is stupid since they would be “tak[ing] there dogs into an area where there are likely to be pheasants?” -Game birds bred to be killed.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    If we are to make it an offence to recklessly allow a dog to flush out or chase a deer why not also make it an offence to recklessly allow a cat to catch a mouse or a songbird.

    Millions of cat owners do this everyday and it results in carnage and suffering of wildlife on a huge scale. In the US cats kill over a billion birds a year. One assumes here it is in the 100 millions.

    Fox hounds kill a fox seconds after they have caught it. Cat’s often play with their prey for a n extended period.

    If this law is really aimed at protecting wildlife rather than persecuting a group of people why does it target a recklessless which at the most causes a few hundred humane deaths a year whereas it leaves unregulated a form of recklessness which causes massively more more gruesome and painful deaths.

    Let’s have legislation based on animal welfare and wildlife protection. Not petty small minded spiteful ignorance.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    If we are to make it an offence to recklessly allow a dog to flush out or chase a deer why not also make it an offence to recklessly allow a cat to catch a mouse or a songbird.

    Millions of cat owners do this everyday and it results in carnage and suffering of wildlife on a huge scale. In the US cats kill over a billion birds a year. One assumes here it is in the 100 millions.

    Fox hounds kill a fox seconds after they have caught it. Cat’s often play with their prey for a n extended period.

    If this law is really aimed at protecting wildlife rather than persecuting a group of people why does it target a recklessless which at the most causes a few hundred humane deaths a year whereas it leaves unregulated a form of recklessness which causes massively more more gruesome and painful deaths.

    Let’s have legislation based on animal welfare and wildlife protection. Not petty small minded spiteful ignorance.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    If we are to make it an offence to recklessly allow a dog to flush out or chase a deer why not also make it an offence to recklessly allow a cat to catch a mouse or a songbird.

    Millions of cat owners do this everyday and it results in carnage and suffering of wildlife on a huge scale. In the US cats kill over a billion birds a year. One assumes here it is in the 100 millions.

    Fox hounds kill a fox seconds after they have caught it. Cat’s often play with their prey for a n extended period.

    If this law is really aimed at protecting wildlife rather than persecuting a group of people why does it target a recklessless which at the most causes a few hundred humane deaths a year whereas it leaves unregulated a form of recklessness which causes massively more more gruesome and painful deaths.

    Let’s have legislation based on animal welfare and wildlife protection. Not petty small minded spiteful ignorance.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    And here is Penny Little writing in the Western Daily Press:

    “My response to the hunters’ desperate spinning of the absolutely predictable calls to strengthen the Hunting Act is to ask them to please be quiet, as the grown-ups are talking”

    I find it incredible that Penny masquerades as a grown up when in fact when her only response to people attempting to debate her position is to tell them to be quiet.

    If the law needs to be changed as it clearly does then in a civilised and democratic society one would expect a rational debate to be held where all views can be carefully considered.

    Not so with the Hunting Debate which produced bad law precisely because one side refused to listen to the other when it was told again and again that the law was flawed.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    And here is Penny Little writing in the Western Daily Press:

    “My response to the hunters’ desperate spinning of the absolutely predictable calls to strengthen the Hunting Act is to ask them to please be quiet, as the grown-ups are talking”

    I find it incredible that Penny masquerades as a grown up when in fact when her only response to people attempting to debate her position is to tell them to be quiet.

    If the law needs to be changed as it clearly does then in a civilised and democratic society one would expect a rational debate to be held where all views can be carefully considered.

    Not so with the Hunting Debate which produced bad law precisely because one side refused to listen to the other when it was told again and again that the law was flawed.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    And here is Penny Little writing in the Western Daily Press:

    “My response to the hunters’ desperate spinning of the absolutely predictable calls to strengthen the Hunting Act is to ask them to please be quiet, as the grown-ups are talking”

    I find it incredible that Penny masquerades as a grown up when in fact when her only response to people attempting to debate her position is to tell them to be quiet.

    If the law needs to be changed as it clearly does then in a civilised and democratic society one would expect a rational debate to be held where all views can be carefully considered.

    Not so with the Hunting Debate which produced bad law precisely because one side refused to listen to the other when it was told again and again that the law was flawed.

  • Peace & Goodwill

    Sheeesh more drivel from Bradshaw and the CONSERVATIVE COUNTRYSIDE ALLIANCE webwatch team..

    Tory voting Cameron’s Crew!

    Yawn! For all those Tribune readers out there… THIS IS GILES BRADSHAW’S… YAWN.. BORING TEDIOUS DRIVEL RIVEN MODUS OPERANDI!

    He allegedly also operates under aliases so.. it wouldnt surprise me if he’s written the lot!

    He befriends animal welfare people, politicians & more sinisterly their ***!!!family members!!!!**** then fill’s their mailboxes with drivel.. That is little short of stalking!

    The man clearly has no life ! Hence his lack of respect for the sanctity of life!

    Funny thing is.. He is clearly ignorant of Penny Little!!!

    Hahhhahha .. thus.. if nothing else.. he has given some post Boxing Day amusement here!

    But anyone out there considering responding who is not a Bradshaw alter ego.. Don’t bother!

    If I was moderating this page and based on Bradshaw’s previous form of stalking people via the internet I would pull ALL comments from this page…….

    And if pro Blood Sport Labour people such as Baroness Mallalieu / Kate Hoey want to submit their views to Trib then let that be the way forward with this issue

  • Peace & Goodwill

    Sheeesh more drivel from Bradshaw and the CONSERVATIVE COUNTRYSIDE ALLIANCE webwatch team..

    Tory voting Cameron’s Crew!

    Yawn! For all those Tribune readers out there… THIS IS GILES BRADSHAW’S… YAWN.. BORING TEDIOUS DRIVEL RIVEN MODUS OPERANDI!

    He allegedly also operates under aliases so.. it wouldnt surprise me if he’s written the lot!

    He befriends animal welfare people, politicians & more sinisterly their ***!!!family members!!!!**** then fill’s their mailboxes with drivel.. That is little short of stalking!

    The man clearly has no life ! Hence his lack of respect for the sanctity of life!

    Funny thing is.. He is clearly ignorant of Penny Little!!!

    Hahhhahha .. thus.. if nothing else.. he has given some post Boxing Day amusement here!

    But anyone out there considering responding who is not a Bradshaw alter ego.. Don’t bother!

    If I was moderating this page and based on Bradshaw’s previous form of stalking people via the internet I would pull ALL comments from this page…….

    And if pro Blood Sport Labour people such as Baroness Mallalieu / Kate Hoey want to submit their views to Trib then let that be the way forward with this issue

  • Peace & Goodwill

    Sheeesh more drivel from Bradshaw and the CONSERVATIVE COUNTRYSIDE ALLIANCE webwatch team..

    Tory voting Cameron’s Crew!

    Yawn! For all those Tribune readers out there… THIS IS GILES BRADSHAW’S… YAWN.. BORING TEDIOUS DRIVEL RIVEN MODUS OPERANDI!

    He allegedly also operates under aliases so.. it wouldnt surprise me if he’s written the lot!

    He befriends animal welfare people, politicians & more sinisterly their ***!!!family members!!!!**** then fill’s their mailboxes with drivel.. That is little short of stalking!

    The man clearly has no life ! Hence his lack of respect for the sanctity of life!

    Funny thing is.. He is clearly ignorant of Penny Little!!!

    Hahhhahha .. thus.. if nothing else.. he has given some post Boxing Day amusement here!

    But anyone out there considering responding who is not a Bradshaw alter ego.. Don’t bother!

    If I was moderating this page and based on Bradshaw’s previous form of stalking people via the internet I would pull ALL comments from this page…….

    And if pro Blood Sport Labour people such as Baroness Mallalieu / Kate Hoey want to submit their views to Trib then let that be the way forward with this issue

  • Rosie

    What people like Giles Bradshaw do not seem to realise is that predation of one animal on another is not always a ‘normal part of nature’, particularly when he and others have bred dogs specifically for hunting etc over the years and caused them to be here when they wouldn’t have been otherwise.

    His predecessors killed all our wolves and much other native wildlife.

    It’s also not natural to farm livestock, as Mr Bradshaw does. I don’t know which animals he farms, but drinking the milk of another species, which is meant for their young, not us as adults isn’t natural. Nor is killing cows to eat their flesh – I’d like to see him try taking one down with his bare hands!

    So any appeals to ‘nature’ are null and void for a farmer. Not to mention the fact that it seems illogical to care about dogs and have an affinity with deer, but be happy to oppress, abuse and kill whichever animal he farms.

    And not all dogs chase other animals. Fact. So if you can’t keep verbal control of yours, then yes, they should be kept on a lead in public. Just as people should stop breeding cats, as they are indeed a serious threat to native wildlife in every country they now inhabit.

  • Rosie

    What people like Giles Bradshaw do not seem to realise is that predation of one animal on another is not always a ‘normal part of nature’, particularly when he and others have bred dogs specifically for hunting etc over the years and caused them to be here when they wouldn’t have been otherwise.

    His predecessors killed all our wolves and much other native wildlife.

    It’s also not natural to farm livestock, as Mr Bradshaw does. I don’t know which animals he farms, but drinking the milk of another species, which is meant for their young, not us as adults isn’t natural. Nor is killing cows to eat their flesh – I’d like to see him try taking one down with his bare hands!

    So any appeals to ‘nature’ are null and void for a farmer. Not to mention the fact that it seems illogical to care about dogs and have an affinity with deer, but be happy to oppress, abuse and kill whichever animal he farms.

    And not all dogs chase other animals. Fact. So if you can’t keep verbal control of yours, then yes, they should be kept on a lead in public. Just as people should stop breeding cats, as they are indeed a serious threat to native wildlife in every country they now inhabit.

  • Rosie

    What people like Giles Bradshaw do not seem to realise is that predation of one animal on another is not always a ‘normal part of nature’, particularly when he and others have bred dogs specifically for hunting etc over the years and caused them to be here when they wouldn’t have been otherwise.

    His predecessors killed all our wolves and much other native wildlife.

    It’s also not natural to farm livestock, as Mr Bradshaw does. I don’t know which animals he farms, but drinking the milk of another species, which is meant for their young, not us as adults isn’t natural. Nor is killing cows to eat their flesh – I’d like to see him try taking one down with his bare hands!

    So any appeals to ‘nature’ are null and void for a farmer. Not to mention the fact that it seems illogical to care about dogs and have an affinity with deer, but be happy to oppress, abuse and kill whichever animal he farms.

    And not all dogs chase other animals. Fact. So if you can’t keep verbal control of yours, then yes, they should be kept on a lead in public. Just as people should stop breeding cats, as they are indeed a serious threat to native wildlife in every country they now inhabit.

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