Tribune – Comment, news and reviews from Britain's democratic left

To be honest I will not vote BNP but I can understand why people do.

but to be told by Labour voting for a party like the BNP is wrong, while this government allows illegal immigrants to wonder around without money, unable to work, or locks them up in interment camps. I’ll take nothing from this bunch of New labour louts the welfare reforms are enough for me, sending home from the UK people who are dying like the lady from Cardiff, Heil Hitler is alive and well in the Labour party

To be honest I will not vote BNP but I can understand why people do.

but to be told by Labour voting for a party like the BNP is wrong, while this government allows illegal immigrants to wonder around without money, unable to work, or locks them up in interment camps. I’ll take nothing from this bunch of New labour louts the welfare reforms are enough for me, sending home from the UK people who are dying like the lady from Cardiff, Heil Hitler is alive and well in the Labour party

Does MacShane hate the Daily Mail because it exposed him:

1. Claiming his scruffy garage was his constituency office?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1183548/The-MP-claimed–125k-garage-used-constituency-office-paint-peeling.html

or

2. How he secretly paid his brother over £10,000 for ‘research and translation’?

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1194462/Former-Labour-Ministers-8-000-cash-poet-brothers-translation-services.html

MacShane has also made matters worse for those fighting the far-right by smearing the anti-Zionist left as ‘anti-semitic’.

We can do without MacShane crying wolf, and if the Fraud Squad take an interest in his expense claims, perhaps we will.

Does MacShane hate the Daily Mail because it exposed him:

1. Claiming his scruffy garage was his constituency office?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1183548/The-MP-claimed–125k-garage-used-constituency-office-paint-peeling.html

or

2. How he secretly paid his brother over £10,000 for ‘research and translation’?

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1194462/Former-Labour-Ministers-8-000-cash-poet-brothers-translation-services.html

MacShane has also made matters worse for those fighting the far-right by smearing the anti-Zionist left as ‘anti-semitic’.

We can do without MacShane crying wolf, and if the Fraud Squad take an interest in his expense claims, perhaps we will.

Robert, there are definitely problems with immigration in this country, but why do you think the BNP have the answers? Surely the Tories would be a better bet? Firstly, the BNP will never get near government. Secondly, the Tories have already said that they’ll tighten up immigration. So why would anyone need to go to the extreme of supporting an unelectable fascist party? That won’t acheive a single thing, so it makes no sense? Feel free to let me know if I am missing something…

Robert, there are definitely problems with immigration in this country, but why do you think the BNP have the answers? Surely the Tories would be a better bet? Firstly, the BNP will never get near government. Secondly, the Tories have already said that they’ll tighten up immigration. So why would anyone need to go to the extreme of supporting an unelectable fascist party? That won’t acheive a single thing, so it makes no sense? Feel free to let me know if I am missing something…

John; the point you are missing is that by voting Conservative one is inducing all the facets of their particular brand of politics. The introduction of further controls on immigration is only one small part of their political manifesto; however, the remainder of their policies are far from desirable. Your obvious desire for people to vote Conservative at the expense of votes being cast to the BNP is in part understandable; however, you along with many others are missing the simple fact that in a democracy, people have a choice. If we don’t like the people’s choice, then we as individuals have the ability to throw our active support behind a more personally palatable political party, but let’s not just sit there and complain at others freedom. I recently heard one Labour councillor suggest that people should be prevented from voting BNP, in light of their recent electoral wins. Personally I find this type of ignorance far more disgusting and insulting than watching the BNP gain favour amongst the public. If we simply take away people’s ability to vote for their political choice, then where does that mind set stop? A one party state? The issue is; the BNP are offering policies and representation to an electorate group that obviously feels its voice is not being heard nor acted upon. That is the issue that needs addressing, but I fear it will raise social points that the mainstream parties would rather keep of the table.
As we move forward in this debate, the issue of nationalism must be divorced from the issues of racism. In my opinion, racism will never be defeated; it will always be present in any localised social group, if only in that groups humour when looking at other social groups. However, the issue of nationalism is far more important to us all as this reflects the individual willingness to accept the rules, laws and traditions of the land regardless of that individual’s skin colour or political persuasion. I suggest therefore, it is those in our society that will not accept our traditional way of life that create these localised negative societies as we have seen emerging in recent times and blamed on the BNP. The cancer in our country simply is not the BNP or so called Fascists, but those that by their individual and collective negative actions create the fertile ground on which the BNP feed and will continue to grow. The adage must be; when in Rome do as the Romans do. Should you not wish to do so, then kindly leave. As we stand today, none of the mainstream political parties have the guts to make such a stand; therefore, the BNP will continue to make political gains, which will result in its members seeing office in Westminster. If that is the case, then we have only ourselves to balme.

John; the point you are missing is that by voting Conservative one is inducing all the facets of their particular brand of politics. The introduction of further controls on immigration is only one small part of their political manifesto; however, the remainder of their policies are far from desirable. Your obvious desire for people to vote Conservative at the expense of votes being cast to the BNP is in part understandable; however, you along with many others are missing the simple fact that in a democracy, people have a choice. If we don’t like the people’s choice, then we as individuals have the ability to throw our active support behind a more personally palatable political party, but let’s not just sit there and complain at others freedom. I recently heard one Labour councillor suggest that people should be prevented from voting BNP, in light of their recent electoral wins. Personally I find this type of ignorance far more disgusting and insulting than watching the BNP gain favour amongst the public. If we simply take away people’s ability to vote for their political choice, then where does that mind set stop? A one party state? The issue is; the BNP are offering policies and representation to an electorate group that obviously feels its voice is not being heard nor acted upon. That is the issue that needs addressing, but I fear it will raise social points that the mainstream parties would rather keep of the table.
As we move forward in this debate, the issue of nationalism must be divorced from the issues of racism. In my opinion, racism will never be defeated; it will always be present in any localised social group, if only in that groups humour when looking at other social groups. However, the issue of nationalism is far more important to us all as this reflects the individual willingness to accept the rules, laws and traditions of the land regardless of that individual’s skin colour or political persuasion. I suggest therefore, it is those in our society that will not accept our traditional way of life that create these localised negative societies as we have seen emerging in recent times and blamed on the BNP. The cancer in our country simply is not the BNP or so called Fascists, but those that by their individual and collective negative actions create the fertile ground on which the BNP feed and will continue to grow. The adage must be; when in Rome do as the Romans do. Should you not wish to do so, then kindly leave. As we stand today, none of the mainstream political parties have the guts to make such a stand; therefore, the BNP will continue to make political gains, which will result in its members seeing office in Westminster. If that is the case, then we have only ourselves to balme.

It’s always interesting how those infected with white guilt try and blame others for the failure of their own policies. If multiracialism fails for any reason, it’s the fault of white people, if there is violence between the races, it’s the fault of white people, if there is any disagreement between the races on anything, it’s that fault of white people. The BNP cannot be responsible for these racial problems because they existed before the BNP was created. Maybe it’s about time you looked in the mirror sir, because by the tone of your article you are the one that is full of hate, hatred for white people.

Maybe if your kind would leave people alone, instead of forcibly integrating them, and then telling them that they need to accept this or they are a racist, Nazi, white supremacist, prejudiced, low class, evil, hateful, bad white person, people of all races would get along better in the world. But, then you would be out of a job.

It’s always interesting how those infected with white guilt try and blame others for the failure of their own policies. If multiracialism fails for any reason, it’s the fault of white people, if there is violence between the races, it’s the fault of white people, if there is any disagreement between the races on anything, it’s that fault of white people. The BNP cannot be responsible for these racial problems because they existed before the BNP was created. Maybe it’s about time you looked in the mirror sir, because by the tone of your article you are the one that is full of hate, hatred for white people.

Maybe if your kind would leave people alone, instead of forcibly integrating them, and then telling them that they need to accept this or they are a racist, Nazi, white supremacist, prejudiced, low class, evil, hateful, bad white person, people of all races would get along better in the world. But, then you would be out of a job.

Much as it pains me to suggest that a vote for the Tories might be a better plan than a vote for the BNP, I would rather encourage a voter toward what is essentially a very ‘central’ Tory party than toward a hateful, overly nationalistic, authoritarian set of ignoramuses like the BNP. The Tories are probably as close to the centre as they have ever been, certainly since the ‘Age of Consensus’, and not terribly far away from New Labour ideologically, certainly not economically speaking. They may still be a distance away on social policy, although Dave would have us believe that he is socially responsible.

I have some sympathy with those contending that the BNP should not be a democratically electable party, because their key message is one of division, segregation and racial hatred. How can that be a valid basis for a political party? I suppose it was the same with Mosley and the BUF in the 30’s, but have we not progressed as a society since then? I can find little positive in the BNP manifesto – they are just a (slightly) polished National Front. I agree that in a democracy they have a right to be heard, but are the BNP not a fascist party? Fascist parties are, by their very nature, anti-democracy? So how can it be justifiable for them to benefit from democracy?

I think it is fine to be proud of one’s country, but not at the expense of others, which invariably becomes the case with nationalism. Besides, the whole concept, with its fixed set of cultural values, is arguably redundant now. Culture is not static – it is in a constant state of flux. It is not about having an old, ‘Little-England’ set of values that we force everyone to adhere to or they get ‘sent back’. This is not a progressive approach, and will not work in the 21st century. Newcomers to this country should accept the need to learn English, integrate into our culture and commit to making a positive contribution to society. We, as the dominant culture, should be willing to accept changes to our own culture because of immigration.

Encouraging assimilation and integration should all be part of us developing a shared national identity. I do not believe that there is anything wrong or racist about objecting to people failing to attempt to integrate. What we should be aiming for is taking the best aspects of each represented culture in the land. It is about compromise, working towards a shared set of values that will always be subject to change as the make up of British population changes. If we achieve that, we should see a more cohesive, positive society emerge.

The nationalistic, authoritarian method of dealing with immigration by the BNP is wrong. They want to stamp their values on immigrants, and throw them out if they refuse to abide by them. They are happy to use force and violence to achieve this aim. They will not tolerate the beliefs of others, and do not accept change to British society through immigration. They proclaim themselves democratic, but are uninterested in democracy. The BNP live off people’s fears and exploit them. I can therefore see why many believe that the methods they would employ to achieve their aims should render them unfit to run a political party.

Much as it pains me to suggest that a vote for the Tories might be a better plan than a vote for the BNP, I would rather encourage a voter toward what is essentially a very ‘central’ Tory party than toward a hateful, overly nationalistic, authoritarian set of ignoramuses like the BNP. The Tories are probably as close to the centre as they have ever been, certainly since the ‘Age of Consensus’, and not terribly far away from New Labour ideologically, certainly not economically speaking. They may still be a distance away on social policy, although Dave would have us believe that he is socially responsible.

I have some sympathy with those contending that the BNP should not be a democratically electable party, because their key message is one of division, segregation and racial hatred. How can that be a valid basis for a political party? I suppose it was the same with Mosley and the BUF in the 30’s, but have we not progressed as a society since then? I can find little positive in the BNP manifesto – they are just a (slightly) polished National Front. I agree that in a democracy they have a right to be heard, but are the BNP not a fascist party? Fascist parties are, by their very nature, anti-democracy? So how can it be justifiable for them to benefit from democracy?

I think it is fine to be proud of one’s country, but not at the expense of others, which invariably becomes the case with nationalism. Besides, the whole concept, with its fixed set of cultural values, is arguably redundant now. Culture is not static – it is in a constant state of flux. It is not about having an old, ‘Little-England’ set of values that we force everyone to adhere to or they get ‘sent back’. This is not a progressive approach, and will not work in the 21st century. Newcomers to this country should accept the need to learn English, integrate into our culture and commit to making a positive contribution to society. We, as the dominant culture, should be willing to accept changes to our own culture because of immigration.

Encouraging assimilation and integration should all be part of us developing a shared national identity. I do not believe that there is anything wrong or racist about objecting to people failing to attempt to integrate. What we should be aiming for is taking the best aspects of each represented culture in the land. It is about compromise, working towards a shared set of values that will always be subject to change as the make up of British population changes. If we achieve that, we should see a more cohesive, positive society emerge.

The nationalistic, authoritarian method of dealing with immigration by the BNP is wrong. They want to stamp their values on immigrants, and throw them out if they refuse to abide by them. They are happy to use force and violence to achieve this aim. They will not tolerate the beliefs of others, and do not accept change to British society through immigration. They proclaim themselves democratic, but are uninterested in democracy. The BNP live off people’s fears and exploit them. I can therefore see why many believe that the methods they would employ to achieve their aims should render them unfit to run a political party.

John; your response raises so many points of debate. It is going to be impossible within the confines of this comments board to touch on them all; however, there are some that I will.
Your assertion that the BNP is a Fascist party and as Fascists, they are un-democratic and thus unworthy of political recognition, is simply wrong. From where do you draw these lines of association? Fascism is I agree anti-democratic. In place of a democratically elected civil governing body, fascists would put into place local, regional and ultimately a national council(s). A Grand Fascist Council would preside over the state. It is trough these councils that the state would govern the populous. The gap between civil and military authority would quickly cease, leaving one head ruling the one body. This was the model developed by Mussolini and the model Sir Oswald Mosley wished to take Great Britain with his British Union of Fascists in the 1930’s.
Given the above, I must say that having not read any policy document(s) released by the BNP that would support as one of its political aims, the adoption of a “Grand Fascist Council” or similar body. As there will be no throwing the democratic process to the four winds, I must challenge your assertion on this point.
Let us not forget that had Mosley succeeded into government we would have seen the introduction of a European “Common Market” as well as a “European Union”. Do these names ring any bells? Given that the BNP policy can be deemed as anti-European, I suggest this casts further doubt on the assertion that they are truly a Fascist party.
Unfortunately in today’s world of politic it seems is far too easy to simply grab a convenient brush, and paint a picture which stirs up the emotions, yet does not reflect fact. You claim the BNP live on fear; well I must suggest the same can be said of this approach. Fascism is a word through which people or entities can be too easily branded as undesirable in the absence of truthful substance. The fact is, the BNP are reflective of a democratic political party, even though the taste of democracy in this instance is not appealing to all.
I concur with you that the social culture of Britain is constantly evolving and now quite diverse, however, it will not serve anyone well to simply lose sight of what we were simply because it fails to promote such social evolution at a rate desired by some. I restate my point; it is not the colour of your skin that makes you British, it is your attitude and acceptance of the values that Britain stands for. Therefore, those that migrate to this land and wish to adopt our multi-racial and multi-religious values should be welcome. Those who do not wish to recognise or embrace our society should either not come, or leave. It is simply not wrong to demand a measure of national loyalty of our citizens, as it s not wrong to expect people to be lawful in their daily lives. If we as a country are to evolve into something of social worth and global merit then “team GB” has to be forefront.
Being proud of your country and standing up as a nationalist does not make you a Fascist. Only when we try and remove the ability and rights of our citizens to express their wishes and thoughts through the ballot box, do we enter the world of the fascism.
The truth of the matter is; the BNP receives support from elements within our society, elements that feel isolated and abandoned by the political correct system that has evolved without consent. These people are not Fascists, so let us not alienate them further by calling them what they are not. They are simply people that are demanding to be heard. We ignore them at our own risk.

John; your response raises so many points of debate. It is going to be impossible within the confines of this comments board to touch on them all; however, there are some that I will.
Your assertion that the BNP is a Fascist party and as Fascists, they are un-democratic and thus unworthy of political recognition, is simply wrong. From where do you draw these lines of association? Fascism is I agree anti-democratic. In place of a democratically elected civil governing body, fascists would put into place local, regional and ultimately a national council(s). A Grand Fascist Council would preside over the state. It is trough these councils that the state would govern the populous. The gap between civil and military authority would quickly cease, leaving one head ruling the one body. This was the model developed by Mussolini and the model Sir Oswald Mosley wished to take Great Britain with his British Union of Fascists in the 1930’s.
Given the above, I must say that having not read any policy document(s) released by the BNP that would support as one of its political aims, the adoption of a “Grand Fascist Council” or similar body. As there will be no throwing the democratic process to the four winds, I must challenge your assertion on this point.
Let us not forget that had Mosley succeeded into government we would have seen the introduction of a European “Common Market” as well as a “European Union”. Do these names ring any bells? Given that the BNP policy can be deemed as anti-European, I suggest this casts further doubt on the assertion that they are truly a Fascist party.
Unfortunately in today’s world of politic it seems is far too easy to simply grab a convenient brush, and paint a picture which stirs up the emotions, yet does not reflect fact. You claim the BNP live on fear; well I must suggest the same can be said of this approach. Fascism is a word through which people or entities can be too easily branded as undesirable in the absence of truthful substance. The fact is, the BNP are reflective of a democratic political party, even though the taste of democracy in this instance is not appealing to all.
I concur with you that the social culture of Britain is constantly evolving and now quite diverse, however, it will not serve anyone well to simply lose sight of what we were simply because it fails to promote such social evolution at a rate desired by some. I restate my point; it is not the colour of your skin that makes you British, it is your attitude and acceptance of the values that Britain stands for. Therefore, those that migrate to this land and wish to adopt our multi-racial and multi-religious values should be welcome. Those who do not wish to recognise or embrace our society should either not come, or leave. It is simply not wrong to demand a measure of national loyalty of our citizens, as it s not wrong to expect people to be lawful in their daily lives. If we as a country are to evolve into something of social worth and global merit then “team GB” has to be forefront.
Being proud of your country and standing up as a nationalist does not make you a Fascist. Only when we try and remove the ability and rights of our citizens to express their wishes and thoughts through the ballot box, do we enter the world of the fascism.
The truth of the matter is; the BNP receives support from elements within our society, elements that feel isolated and abandoned by the political correct system that has evolved without consent. These people are not Fascists, so let us not alienate them further by calling them what they are not. They are simply people that are demanding to be heard. We ignore them at our own risk.

It’s interesting the way these sort of articles all have the same flavour – ad hominem attacks and hatred of the most virulent type, no attempt to offer rational explanations for people’s choice to vote BNP and a scarcely concealed hysteria and paranoia. The BNP is not antisemetic or anti Jew per se, indeed Jews are welcome as members. However – and I speak only for myself here and not as any form of BNP spokesman – I regard the BNP as essentially an antiCommunist, antiglobalisation group, and am well aware that Communism is a manifestation of atheistical Jewish thinking – the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 being a prime example. It is also glaringly obvious that all of the visceral hatred poured out against the BNP can be traced back to Jewish sources, aided and abetted by a mainly Jewish owned media. Communism is internationalism, it is unnatural, unlike nationalism which is healthy and natural. The BNP promote the latter, and I wonder where MacShane stands on such matters.

It’s interesting the way these sort of articles all have the same flavour – ad hominem attacks and hatred of the most virulent type, no attempt to offer rational explanations for people’s choice to vote BNP and a scarcely concealed hysteria and paranoia. The BNP is not antisemetic or anti Jew per se, indeed Jews are welcome as members. However – and I speak only for myself here and not as any form of BNP spokesman – I regard the BNP as essentially an antiCommunist, antiglobalisation group, and am well aware that Communism is a manifestation of atheistical Jewish thinking – the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 being a prime example. It is also glaringly obvious that all of the visceral hatred poured out against the BNP can be traced back to Jewish sources, aided and abetted by a mainly Jewish owned media. Communism is internationalism, it is unnatural, unlike nationalism which is healthy and natural. The BNP promote the latter, and I wonder where MacShane stands on such matters.

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