Why gamekeepers turn poachers: it’s nature’s way

Four former directors of the League Against Cruel Sports have changed their minds about hunting. Jim Barrington explains why he is one

by Tribune Web Editor
Monday, August 10th, 2009

Four former directors of the League Against Cruel Sports have changed their minds about hunting. Jim Barrington explains why he is one

If  “bloodsports” are an emotive issue snapping at the ankles of David Cameron, as Kevin Maguire states (Tribune July 24), their abolition is certainly some sort of holy grail for many on the left. For all the talk about Cameron’s confused priorities, remember it was those obsessed with banning hunting

who consumed more than 700 hours of parliamentary time discussing the Hunting Act – 10 times longer than debating going to war in Iraq.

Instead of quoting opinion polls that show a percentage of people against hunting, a more productive finding would be how much of a priority the issue is to voters. A recent private survey in marginal constituencies shows that hunting hardly registers as a deciding factor in voting intentions.

And what has been the result of this massively-funded campaign to outlaw hunting with dogs?

A principled law?  No, hunting was singled out, yet causes no more suffering than other methods of control.

A scientifically-backed law?  No, there is no scientific research that shows the use of dogs causes excessive suffering. Indeed, with dogs, there is no wounding.

A logical law?  No, because only two hounds are now be used to flush out an animal, which must then be shot. Using three hounds and not shooting the animal is against this “animal welfare law”. Terriers can still be used on foxes underground to protect birds that are to be shot, but a farmer cannot use this same method to protect a lamb or rare ground-nesting birds.

A workable law?  No, because a fundamental oversight by anti-hunters is that it is the dog that hunts, not the human. All dogs will hunt to one degree or another.

An enforceable law?  No, as the High Court recently ruled, hunting has to be “intentional” on the part of the human. As good as the police are, they are rubbish at mind-reading.

Dogs evolved from wolves and use similar hunting strategies. The quarry species have also developed tactics to avoid being caught and, rather than being traumatised as is so often thought, the process is crucial to their survival and health in the wild.

The scenting power of the dog is more than a simple tracking ability. This “search and catch” capability enables weak, old, ailing, injured animals or animals who constitute a high parasitic burden to be caught – precisely the animals that need to be removed, not only for the sake of relieving their suffering, but also to keep the population healthy.

So, if hunting with dogs is a useful weapon with which to bash the toffs, fine – although people should be honest about it. If class war is your thing, go ahead and fight it. However, if you are serious about improving animal welfare, first understand the activity and the consequences of its abolition for the animals involved. The Hunting Act has made animal welfare worse. It is simply a bad law at every level and should be repealed.

As a former director of the League Against Cruel Sports, I campaigned to see hunting abolished.  Understanding hunting was part of that process and, in trying to do so, I began to see it in a different light. I was not the only one; three other former directors of the League also changed their minds on the abolition of hunting with dogs.  One has to ask: why?

Jim Barrington is  animal welfare consultant to the All-Party Parliamentary Middle Way Group, the Countryside Alliance and the Council of Hunting Associations

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  • Eric, Wales

    Typical Countryside Alliance nonsense. The only reason it took so long to get the hunt bill through was the filibustering of the pro-hunt lobby allied with the lack of political will from the Labour front bench. The will of Parliament was clear, but frustrated, for many years. If too long has already been spent on this issue then why don’t Jim and Tory pals move onto subjects they find more important?

    On the science of the ban, the hunters don’t seem to be able to get their heads around the simple truth that hunting has no impact on the overall fox population (plenty of research showing that). The clain in the article that “With dogs there is no wounding” is frankly insulting to anyone reading it. Barrington has carelessly omitted his source for this “scientific” finding.

  • Eric, Wales

    Typical Countryside Alliance nonsense. The only reason it took so long to get the hunt bill through was the filibustering of the pro-hunt lobby allied with the lack of political will from the Labour front bench. The will of Parliament was clear, but frustrated, for many years. If too long has already been spent on this issue then why don’t Jim and Tory pals move onto subjects they find more important?

    On the science of the ban, the hunters don’t seem to be able to get their heads around the simple truth that hunting has no impact on the overall fox population (plenty of research showing that). The clain in the article that “With dogs there is no wounding” is frankly insulting to anyone reading it. Barrington has carelessly omitted his source for this “scientific” finding.

  • http://NWales Steve

    Having seen many kills by hunts (foxes and hares in particular), following the exciting jeers and cheers of riders and foot followers, I have no doubt at all that the chases and deaths were cruel. I have picked up the bodies of animals torn to pieces by hunting hounds, and seen first hand that they are not killed by ‘a quick nip on the back of the neck’.
    I also have no doubt that we do not need to ‘control’ wildlife, whether by hunting with hounds, shooting or snaring.
    Its not about ‘toffs’, a good number of foot followers are ‘working class’, as are hunt staff like terriermen.
    Barrington moans about the long hours it took to get the ‘ban’ through Parliament but Cameron wants to spend many more to allow people the right to chase and rip wildlife to shreds.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Eric Wales’ assertion that hunting has no impact on the fox population is a little tendentious to say the least.

    Fox hunting pre ban killed approximately 20,000 foxes a year. An additional 100,000 were shot. That means that hunting killed a fifth of the number shot. This is no small proportion. Hunting ALONE might make no significant impact but as part of the total number killed it does.

    The question as to whether to ban hunting and allow shooting must surely rely on whether hunting is more cruel than shooting. If it is not then what is the benefit.

    Eric’s argument becomes as stupid as saying that as only a seventh of foxes are shot on wednesdays that day as no significant impact on the fox population so shooting foxes on Wednesdays must be banned.

    Why, when it is no crueller than shooting them on Saturdays.

    The Government promised to base its legislation on the Burns report. This report stated that there were instances when Hunting was a preferable method to shooting.

    It also did NOT find that Hunting was cruel. It found that it ‘seriously compromised the welfare of the fox’ but that is a different issue. Blasting a fox’s leg off with a rifle quite obviously seriously compromises its welfare too.

    The central question s ‘do foxes need to be controlled’. If they do then an effective method should be used. What this is depends on the circumstances and the aim of the control.

    It would have been far better to license methods of wild animal control in individual circumstances. The licensing procedure would have looked at the aim of the control, the need for it and the relative animal welfare impact of different methods.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    Eric Wales’ assertion that hunting has no impact on the fox population is a little tendentious to say the least.

    Fox hunting pre ban killed approximately 20,000 foxes a year. An additional 100,000 were shot. That means that hunting killed a fifth of the number shot. This is no small proportion. Hunting ALONE might make no significant impact but as part of the total number killed it does.

    The question as to whether to ban hunting and allow shooting must surely rely on whether hunting is more cruel than shooting. If it is not then what is the benefit.

    Eric’s argument becomes as stupid as saying that as only a seventh of foxes are shot on wednesdays that day as no significant impact on the fox population so shooting foxes on Wednesdays must be banned.

    Why, when it is no crueller than shooting them on Saturdays.

    The Government promised to base its legislation on the Burns report. This report stated that there were instances when Hunting was a preferable method to shooting.

    It also did NOT find that Hunting was cruel. It found that it ‘seriously compromised the welfare of the fox’ but that is a different issue. Blasting a fox’s leg off with a rifle quite obviously seriously compromises its welfare too.

    The central question s ‘do foxes need to be controlled’. If they do then an effective method should be used. What this is depends on the circumstances and the aim of the control.

    It would have been far better to license methods of wild animal control in individual circumstances. The licensing procedure would have looked at the aim of the control, the need for it and the relative animal welfare impact of different methods.

  • Mark

    James Barrington spent a lot of time when he worked at LACS making public statements which completely contradict those he makes now. He is a fraud,simple as that.

  • Mark

    James Barrington spent a lot of time when he worked at LACS making public statements which completely contradict those he makes now. He is a fraud,simple as that.

  • http://www.newforesthounds.co.uk Will

    Eric I think you are right when you say the labour front bench did not want to ban hunting. Tony Blair wanted the licencing bill that was put forward. It was amended by hell bent labour back benchers. The same lot that have been living very nicely off us taxpayers!

    They spent 700 hours in the Commons to come up with this rubbish ban. Parliamnet’s will was NOT at all clear. It was the House of Commons lead by Labour backbenchers that forced the ban in with the Parliament Act. That Act is suppose to be used for national emergencies. Hunting has been going on for 300 years, where is the sudden emergency? Cameron will spend very little time on the hunting issue. It will be a simple and quick kill, I mean repeal.

    Go on then Eric, site your scientific research showing hunting has no impact on fox numbers! You cannot just say something like that without referring us to the paper that proves it.I learnt that at uni studying environmental science and ecology. You can’t suppl a paper name, because there is no such paper so stop wasting our time. The Burns Report clearly shows huntings impact on all variables including fox numbers.

    Steve, animals killed by hounds are done so by a bite that breaks the neck or the back. The hounds then ‘worry’ the dead carcass which is of NO consequence as the animal is long dead. I have seen it firt hand several times. My opinion of what happens is different from yours. I am pleased we live in a land where we can have our own opinions. I do not like you anti lot trying to force us all to have the same opinion as you. The country would soon be a very very boring place!

    Of course we need to control wildlife. That is the system that has been put in place over the last 1000 years. We cannot abandon it now, that would cause untold suffering. I would rather die instantly than suffering from a gangreenous leg after being shot or from starvation. Hunting is the best control method. Long Live the Hunt! !

  • http://www.newforesthounds.co.uk Will

    Eric I think you are right when you say the labour front bench did not want to ban hunting. Tony Blair wanted the licencing bill that was put forward. It was amended by hell bent labour back benchers. The same lot that have been living very nicely off us taxpayers!

    They spent 700 hours in the Commons to come up with this rubbish ban. Parliamnet’s will was NOT at all clear. It was the House of Commons lead by Labour backbenchers that forced the ban in with the Parliament Act. That Act is suppose to be used for national emergencies. Hunting has been going on for 300 years, where is the sudden emergency? Cameron will spend very little time on the hunting issue. It will be a simple and quick kill, I mean repeal.

    Go on then Eric, site your scientific research showing hunting has no impact on fox numbers! You cannot just say something like that without referring us to the paper that proves it.I learnt that at uni studying environmental science and ecology. You can’t suppl a paper name, because there is no such paper so stop wasting our time. The Burns Report clearly shows huntings impact on all variables including fox numbers.

    Steve, animals killed by hounds are done so by a bite that breaks the neck or the back. The hounds then ‘worry’ the dead carcass which is of NO consequence as the animal is long dead. I have seen it firt hand several times. My opinion of what happens is different from yours. I am pleased we live in a land where we can have our own opinions. I do not like you anti lot trying to force us all to have the same opinion as you. The country would soon be a very very boring place!

    Of course we need to control wildlife. That is the system that has been put in place over the last 1000 years. We cannot abandon it now, that would cause untold suffering. I would rather die instantly than suffering from a gangreenous leg after being shot or from starvation. Hunting is the best control method. Long Live the Hunt! !

  • Eric, Wales

    You wanted a scitation, how about one from Nature: “Effect of British hunting ban on fox numbers”, Philip J. Baker, Stephen Harris & Charlotte C. Webbon, Nature 419, 34 (5 September 2002).

    Also, check out this link: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi775/fox_hunting_report.htm and the references.

    Where are the references backing up your assertions, Will and Giles?

  • Eric, Wales

    You wanted a scitation, how about one from Nature: “Effect of British hunting ban on fox numbers”, Philip J. Baker, Stephen Harris & Charlotte C. Webbon, Nature 419, 34 (5 September 2002).

    Also, check out this link: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi775/fox_hunting_report.htm and the references.

    Where are the references backing up your assertions, Will and Giles?

  • Giles Bradshaw

    ok so three months of hunting was stopped. We don’t know if other forms of fox control went up such as shooting and terrier work.

    Fox hunting accounts for about a fifth of the foxes culled a year. I understand terrier work about a quarter.

    If culling foxes controls numbers then a fifth of this effect came from fox hunting and a quarter from terrier work.

    Of course banning hunting may well not effect numbers because other more cruel methods increase.

    I never cease to be amazed when anti hut people complain that hunting does not kill enough foxes. Talk about warped logic!

  • Giles Bradshaw

    ok so three months of hunting was stopped. We don’t know if other forms of fox control went up such as shooting and terrier work.

    Fox hunting accounts for about a fifth of the foxes culled a year. I understand terrier work about a quarter.

    If culling foxes controls numbers then a fifth of this effect came from fox hunting and a quarter from terrier work.

    Of course banning hunting may well not effect numbers because other more cruel methods increase.

    I never cease to be amazed when anti hut people complain that hunting does not kill enough foxes. Talk about warped logic!

  • Giles Bradshaw

    A peer reviewed scientific study showed that wounding rates from shooting can be as high as 60% for shotguns and 48% for rifles.

    The proportion of foxes wounded did not change with the expertise of the shooter merely the proportion killed.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    A peer reviewed scientific study showed that wounding rates from shooting can be as high as 60% for shotguns and 48% for rifles.

    The proportion of foxes wounded did not change with the expertise of the shooter merely the proportion killed.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    The long term effects of a ban on hunting are highly complex as would be the effects of the complete ban on all ‘cruel’ country sports that LACS proposes.

    Country sports contribute a massive amount of conservation work to the countryside.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    The long term effects of a ban on hunting are highly complex as would be the effects of the complete ban on all ‘cruel’ country sports that LACS proposes.

    Country sports contribute a massive amount of conservation work to the countryside.

  • Eric, Wales

    So Giles just makes assertions without backing them up? Where are the peer reviewed references backing up his hunt dogma?

    What do the “kill em all” brigade think controls badger numbers? I don’t find myself knee deep in the black and white blighters whilst out walking my dog. Their numbers, like those of foxes, self limit based on available territory.

  • Eric, Wales

    So Giles just makes assertions without backing them up? Where are the peer reviewed references backing up his hunt dogma?

    What do the “kill em all” brigade think controls badger numbers? I don’t find myself knee deep in the black and white blighters whilst out walking my dog. Their numbers, like those of foxes, self limit based on available territory.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    “Where are the peer reviewed references backing up his hunt dogma? ”

    Wounding Rates in shooting foxes Animal Welfare May 06

    “What do the “kill em all” brigade think controls badger numbers?”

    Badger numbers used to be controlled by man. Since the ban on killing badgers their numbers have mushroomed. The badger population is now overcrowded which means we get more disease.

    A classic disease of overcrowding is TB. No surprise then that TB is endemic amongst badgers.

    Animals that die from TB do so with terrible suffering.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    “Where are the peer reviewed references backing up his hunt dogma? ”

    Wounding Rates in shooting foxes Animal Welfare May 06

    “What do the “kill em all” brigade think controls badger numbers?”

    Badger numbers used to be controlled by man. Since the ban on killing badgers their numbers have mushroomed. The badger population is now overcrowded which means we get more disease.

    A classic disease of overcrowding is TB. No surprise then that TB is endemic amongst badgers.

    Animals that die from TB do so with terrible suffering.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    “What do the “kill em all” brigade think controls badger numbers?”

    What would have exerted control of both fox and badger numbers were the apex predators which we have removed. This has produced an in balance which means meso predators such as foxes tend become more abundant leading to a loss of bio diversity.

    Research in Sweden using Radio tracking found 50% fox mortality from Lynx. Other research correlates the decline in lynx and wolf populations with an increase in foxes.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    “What do the “kill em all” brigade think controls badger numbers?”

    What would have exerted control of both fox and badger numbers were the apex predators which we have removed. This has produced an in balance which means meso predators such as foxes tend become more abundant leading to a loss of bio diversity.

    Research in Sweden using Radio tracking found 50% fox mortality from Lynx. Other research correlates the decline in lynx and wolf populations with an increase in foxes.

  • AR2048

    Foxhunting – a pack of bloodthirsty humans setting a pack of dogs on ONE weak or old or ailing or injured fox.

    ‘British tradition’ in all its cruel tyranny.

    Curious that the pro-hunt extremists say the ban is about class when, rather, the Lack of a ban for so long was everything to do with class.

    Also curious is how the pro-hunt extremists moan on about the amount of parliamentary time already spent discussing the issue – but say they want parliament to spend even more time on it if Cameron is elected.

    The pro-hunt extremists just can’t get their story straight – too much parliamentary time/more parliamentary time, animal-hunting is a sport…no it’s wildlife management…no it’s for the good of foxes…no it’s a ‘right’…

    remember these extremists try to portray themselves as champions of ‘liberty’ – what they actually mean though is the ‘liberty’ to deny others – their victims – their liberty.

    Perhaps the pro-hunt extremists would explain why, If the dogs would so hunt naturally, they train the dogs by setting them on foxcubs.

    The ban is about moral progress – it will be strenthened because killing for entertainment has no place in the UK in the 21st century.

  • AR2048

    Foxhunting – a pack of bloodthirsty humans setting a pack of dogs on ONE weak or old or ailing or injured fox.

    ‘British tradition’ in all its cruel tyranny.

    Curious that the pro-hunt extremists say the ban is about class when, rather, the Lack of a ban for so long was everything to do with class.

    Also curious is how the pro-hunt extremists moan on about the amount of parliamentary time already spent discussing the issue – but say they want parliament to spend even more time on it if Cameron is elected.

    The pro-hunt extremists just can’t get their story straight – too much parliamentary time/more parliamentary time, animal-hunting is a sport…no it’s wildlife management…no it’s for the good of foxes…no it’s a ‘right’…

    remember these extremists try to portray themselves as champions of ‘liberty’ – what they actually mean though is the ‘liberty’ to deny others – their victims – their liberty.

    Perhaps the pro-hunt extremists would explain why, If the dogs would so hunt naturally, they train the dogs by setting them on foxcubs.

    The ban is about moral progress – it will be strenthened because killing for entertainment has no place in the UK in the 21st century.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I wonder if AR2048 sees anyone who criticises this law as anything but a pro hunt extremist.

    In my experience people who paint anyone who disagrees with them as an extremist are normally just that.

  • Giles Bradshaw

    I wonder if AR2048 sees anyone who criticises this law as anything but a pro hunt extremist.

    In my experience people who paint anyone who disagrees with them as an extremist are normally just that.

  • AR2048

    I wonder if Giles Bradshaw can be genuinely unaware that many Against hunting criticise this law because it needs to be strengthened – which it will be as part of inevitable moral progress.

  • AR2048

    I wonder if Giles Bradshaw can be genuinely unaware that many Against hunting criticise this law because it needs to be strengthened – which it will be as part of inevitable moral progress.

  • Phil

    The law has huge flaws in it. The biggest of which is that it does not outlaw the accidental killing of wildlife.

    As it stands hunting has to involve intent. The next step is to remove the requirement for intent.

  • Phil

    The law has huge flaws in it. The biggest of which is that it does not outlaw the accidental killing of wildlife.

    As it stands hunting has to involve intent. The next step is to remove the requirement for intent.

  • Eric, Wales

    AR2048 makes a very valid point that hunt supporters change their argument on a regular basis. That’s because even they realise that there’s not much electoral mileage in telling the truth “we want to kill animals because we’ve always killed them and we like it”

    Giles manages to drag up a partial (if slightly incorrect) reference that doesn’t answer the question we’re discussing at all. (Although I’m pleased to see that Giles agrees with me then that shooting animals should also be banned due to the possibility of wounding, based on the findings of this paper.) The full and correct reference is: Wounding rates in shooting foxes (Vulpes vulpes) by NC Fox, N Blay, AG Greenwood, D Wise and E Potapov, Animal Welfare 2005, Vol 14: 93-102

    Does Giles want to present some evidence that badger numbers have mushroomed? What we can I’m sure agree on is that, without human intervention, their numbers are relatively static even though they have no natural predators. Fox populations are no different.

    The related questions for which evidence has not been forthcoming from the pro hunt lobby are “do fox numbers need controlling” and “does hunting with dogs change the overall fox population”? There’s no evidence that the answer to either of these questions is “yes”.

  • Eric, Wales

    AR2048 makes a very valid point that hunt supporters change their argument on a regular basis. That’s because even they realise that there’s not much electoral mileage in telling the truth “we want to kill animals because we’ve always killed them and we like it”

    Giles manages to drag up a partial (if slightly incorrect) reference that doesn’t answer the question we’re discussing at all. (Although I’m pleased to see that Giles agrees with me then that shooting animals should also be banned due to the possibility of wounding, based on the findings of this paper.) The full and correct reference is: Wounding rates in shooting foxes (Vulpes vulpes) by NC Fox, N Blay, AG Greenwood, D Wise and E Potapov, Animal Welfare 2005, Vol 14: 93-102

    Does Giles want to present some evidence that badger numbers have mushroomed? What we can I’m sure agree on is that, without human intervention, their numbers are relatively static even though they have no natural predators. Fox populations are no different.

    The related questions for which evidence has not been forthcoming from the pro hunt lobby are “do fox numbers need controlling” and “does hunting with dogs change the overall fox population”? There’s no evidence that the answer to either of these questions is “yes”.

  • giles bradshaw

    Different people make different arguments. That doesn’t mean that the arguments from one side constantly change. Some anti hunt people complain of toffs on horses others insist it has nothing to do with class. Many antis state that shooting is a preferable means of control You are against it too. If you want to raise the debate above the level of opposing groups of football fans perhaps have the decency to treat people as individuals?

    Why would I make the argument “I want to kill animals because I’ve always killed them and I like it”? I don’t kill foxes deer hares or mink so that would be a rather silly thing for me to say now wouldn’t it?

    Have you really pasted that full reference in an attempt to make yourself look clever? How unbelievably pathetic! Why not make a few facetious remarks about my speLing and graMEr while you are at it? I am sure everybody will be suitably impressed? NOT!

    Another extremely pathetic and puerile way to argue is by pretending that I have made an argument that I haven’t as in “Although I’m pleased to see that Giles agrees with me then that shooting animals should also be banned due to the possibility of wounding, based on the findings of this paper.” This just makes you come across as a complete idiot if you don’t mind me saying so.

    The question is not “does hunting with dogs change the overall fox population”? the question is if fox control procedures control the overall fox population. If they do then the question becomes “is hunting with dogs any crueller than other means”. If hunting with dogs is no crueller then there are no grounds to ban it. It is making a contribution to the overall kill. Banning hunting would make no more sense than banning shooting on a particular day because only 1/7 of foxes are killed on that day. I note that you ignored that point before and trust that you will again.

    The relevance of the shooting research is that it suggests that the welfare impact of shooting is much worse than previously acknowledged. The relative welfare impact of the two methods is relevant because when hunting is banned shooting is likely to go up. If shooting causes more suffering then this means that the overall welfare implications of a ban would be negative.

    Animal populations are by no means static, in unbalanced ecosystems they can rise and then crash as food supplies are exhausted or endemic disease takes hold. This might well occur with deer if they were not controlled. The numbers of deer are currently rising although at a slower pace than if there were no control.

    “Does hunting with dogs ALONE change the OVERALL fox population” probably not. “Does hunting with dogs make a significant contribution to the overall numbers of foxes killed in control procedures.” Yes. Especially when you take into account terrier work and the use of lurchers etc. (far more prevalent than you might think btw).

    “Can hunting with dogs make a difference to a fox population locally?” Of course it can. Fox hunting combined with terrier work and digging out can take out pretty much all the foxes in an area. New foxes will move in but can continually be removed with continual control.

    “do overall fox numbers need controlling?” a complex issue. Where foxes are not causing a problem the only reason some form of control is desirable is for their own welfare and to maintain biodiversity. Where foxes are not being killed they die. This will be from unnatural means such as starvation and disease. In the absence of a foxes natural predators such means become more prevalent. Fox hunting has positive and negative welfare impacts as does shooting. The impact is positive when a wounded or diseased animal is put out of its misery. Unlike shooting which produces MORE wounded animals fox hunting results in less overall weakened animals. This is because of the competitive nature of the chase. Weak animals are statistically more likely to get caught. For this reason it actually compliments shooting. This animal wounded horrifically by a rifle was found and dispatched by a hunt click here.

    “Do fox numbers need controlling locally?” Most certainly in specific situations foxes can cause significant damage. In others they are a good thing eg by controlling rabbit numbers – a significant agricultural pest. One of the most stupid arguments employed by the anti hunt movement is looking at the overall cost of foxes to british agriculture. What has that got to do with a shoot that has lost £20,000 worth of pheasants?

    Yes badger numbers have increased substantially since their persecution was banned. In some areas they had become virtually extinct. There are umpteen references to choose from. I’ll let you impress everyone with your academic credentials by cutting and pasting a reference. In my opinion badgers were massively over persecuted in a a cruel manner (baiting). However they are now being under persecuted. What is needed is a system of management that maintains their numbers at a sustainable measure. Not to let them explode followed by massive culling as will quite probably now happen at some point.

    Yes in the absence of predation an animal’s population will be limited by bottom up control (territory, food supply). It will not necessarily be static. Moreover the consequences for biodiversity can be dire. The consequences for animal health can also be dire. Have you ever seen what happens when TB infested badgers retire to their setts to die? It is a long slow agonising death and they are emitting clouds of bacteria in a damp sett to infect other badgers. TB is a disease of over crowding.

    The question is at what level will uncontrolled animal populations exist at and with what effects.

    Badger numbers are still rising. Without control they will eventually get to the point where they are limited by as many animals starving and choking their lungs out with TB etc as are being born. They will also quite possibly have wiped out hedgehogs. They will only get to the point where animals are starving when they have no food left. Is this the form of wild animal control which you prefer? And on what grounds? Animal welfare? Ecology?

    In my opinion it is a worthwhile exercise to assess the welfare and ecological implications of not managing badger and fox populations.

    Fox populations around the world are subject to both bottom up and top down control ie they are actively killed rather than just die. Wolves and lynx were significant fox predators here. A study in Sweden has shown that when wolf and lynx numbers decline fox numbers go up. Meso predator release means that the removal of an apex predator results in the increase in numbers of a meso predator (such as foxes and deer counting eating plants as predation). This has a consequent negative effect on bio diversity.

    Elmhagen, B. and Rushton, S. P. 2007. Trophic control of mesopredators in terrestrial ecosystems: top-down or bottom-up? Ecology Letters 10:
    197-206.

    ooo look I cut and pasted a full reference aren’t I clever!!!

  • giles bradshaw

    Different people make different arguments. That doesn’t mean that the arguments from one side constantly change. Some anti hunt people complain of toffs on horses others insist it has nothing to do with class. Many antis state that shooting is a preferable means of control You are against it too. If you want to raise the debate above the level of opposing groups of football fans perhaps have the decency to treat people as individuals?

    Why would I make the argument “I want to kill animals because I’ve always killed them and I like it”? I don’t kill foxes deer hares or mink so that would be a rather silly thing for me to say now wouldn’t it?

    Have you really pasted that full reference in an attempt to make yourself look clever? How unbelievably pathetic! Why not make a few facetious remarks about my speLing and graMEr while you are at it? I am sure everybody will be suitably impressed? NOT!

    Another extremely pathetic and puerile way to argue is by pretending that I have made an argument that I haven’t as in “Although I’m pleased to see that Giles agrees with me then that shooting animals should also be banned due to the possibility of wounding, based on the findings of this paper.” This just makes you come across as a complete idiot if you don’t mind me saying so.

    The question is not “does hunting with dogs change the overall fox population”? the question is if fox control procedures control the overall fox population. If they do then the question becomes “is hunting with dogs any crueller than other means”. If hunting with dogs is no crueller then there are no grounds to ban it. It is making a contribution to the overall kill. Banning hunting would make no more sense than banning shooting on a particular day because only 1/7 of foxes are killed on that day. I note that you ignored that point before and trust that you will again.

    The relevance of the shooting research is that it suggests that the welfare impact of shooting is much worse than previously acknowledged. The relative welfare impact of the two methods is relevant because when hunting is banned shooting is likely to go up. If shooting causes more suffering then this means that the overall welfare implications of a ban would be negative.

    Animal populations are by no means static, in unbalanced ecosystems they can rise and then crash as food supplies are exhausted or endemic disease takes hold. This might well occur with deer if they were not controlled. The numbers of deer are currently rising although at a slower pace than if there were no control.

    “Does hunting with dogs ALONE change the OVERALL fox population” probably not. “Does hunting with dogs make a significant contribution to the overall numbers of foxes killed in control procedures.” Yes. Especially when you take into account terrier work and the use of lurchers etc. (far more prevalent than you might think btw).

    “Can hunting with dogs make a difference to a fox population locally?” Of course it can. Fox hunting combined with terrier work and digging out can take out pretty much all the foxes in an area. New foxes will move in but can continually be removed with continual control.

    “do overall fox numbers need controlling?” a complex issue. Where foxes are not causing a problem the only reason some form of control is desirable is for their own welfare and to maintain biodiversity. Where foxes are not being killed they die. This will be from unnatural means such as starvation and disease. In the absence of a foxes natural predators such means become more prevalent. Fox hunting has positive and negative welfare impacts as does shooting. The impact is positive when a wounded or diseased animal is put out of its misery. Unlike shooting which produces MORE wounded animals fox hunting results in less overall weakened animals. This is because of the competitive nature of the chase. Weak animals are statistically more likely to get caught. For this reason it actually compliments shooting. This animal wounded horrifically by a rifle was found and dispatched by a hunt click here.

    “Do fox numbers need controlling locally?” Most certainly in specific situations foxes can cause significant damage. In others they are a good thing eg by controlling rabbit numbers – a significant agricultural pest. One of the most stupid arguments employed by the anti hunt movement is looking at the overall cost of foxes to british agriculture. What has that got to do with a shoot that has lost £20,000 worth of pheasants?

    Yes badger numbers have increased substantially since their persecution was banned. In some areas they had become virtually extinct. There are umpteen references to choose from. I’ll let you impress everyone with your academic credentials by cutting and pasting a reference. In my opinion badgers were massively over persecuted in a a cruel manner (baiting). However they are now being under persecuted. What is needed is a system of management that maintains their numbers at a sustainable measure. Not to let them explode followed by massive culling as will quite probably now happen at some point.

    Yes in the absence of predation an animal’s population will be limited by bottom up control (territory, food supply). It will not necessarily be static. Moreover the consequences for biodiversity can be dire. The consequences for animal health can also be dire. Have you ever seen what happens when TB infested badgers retire to their setts to die? It is a long slow agonising death and they are emitting clouds of bacteria in a damp sett to infect other badgers. TB is a disease of over crowding.

    The question is at what level will uncontrolled animal populations exist at and with what effects.

    Badger numbers are still rising. Without control they will eventually get to the point where they are limited by as many animals starving and choking their lungs out with TB etc as are being born. They will also quite possibly have wiped out hedgehogs. They will only get to the point where animals are starving when they have no food left. Is this the form of wild animal control which you prefer? And on what grounds? Animal welfare? Ecology?

    In my opinion it is a worthwhile exercise to assess the welfare and ecological implications of not managing badger and fox populations.

    Fox populations around the world are subject to both bottom up and top down control ie they are actively killed rather than just die. Wolves and lynx were significant fox predators here. A study in Sweden has shown that when wolf and lynx numbers decline fox numbers go up. Meso predator release means that the removal of an apex predator results in the increase in numbers of a meso predator (such as foxes and deer counting eating plants as predation). This has a consequent negative effect on bio diversity.

    Elmhagen, B. and Rushton, S. P. 2007. Trophic control of mesopredators in terrestrial ecosystems: top-down or bottom-up? Ecology Letters 10:
    197-206.

    ooo look I cut and pasted a full reference aren’t I clever!!!

  • Phil

    Anything Giles Bradshaw says is utterly irrelevant. He is a Tory and a leading member of the pro bloodsports Countryside Alliance.

    Hunting with hounds is about the conspicuous display of class and nothing else. This above all justifies the ban.

    One only has to attend a hunt meet and see how they look down at you from their horses.

    The Hunting Act needs urgently to be tightened because it has failed to force hunts to disband.

    The best way to do this is to make accidental hunting illegal. This would make it impossible for these hunts to continue.

  • Phil

    Anything Giles Bradshaw says is utterly irrelevant. He is a Tory and a leading member of the pro bloodsports Countryside Alliance.

    Hunting with hounds is about the conspicuous display of class and nothing else. This above all justifies the ban.

    One only has to attend a hunt meet and see how they look down at you from their horses.

    The Hunting Act needs urgently to be tightened because it has failed to force hunts to disband.

    The best way to do this is to make accidental hunting illegal. This would make it impossible for these hunts to continue.

  • Eric, Wales

    Phil: I agree with your analysis: a simple clause added to the hunting bill that dogs must be kept under control and any hunting is the owner’s responsibility should close the loopholes.

    Giles and his ilk are hilarious. I’m so pleased they’re going to be campaigning for the Tories in the next election. Can you imagine the number of voters they’ll put off. “Foxes have to be killed to stop them killing game birds – that’s our job!” “We only kill animals for their own welfare”. Priceless.

    Hunting is not just a class issue though. Working class animal abuse is equally as wrong as any other sort – have you met any terrier men? That said, hunt meets are the only place I’ve actually seen someone tug their forelock outside of a period drama on TV.

    I was unable to find any references that indicate badger numbers are rising. The only information I could find suggested that over the last ten years there has if anything been a small decline in numbers.

  • Eric, Wales

    Phil: I agree with your analysis: a simple clause added to the hunting bill that dogs must be kept under control and any hunting is the owner’s responsibility should close the loopholes.

    Giles and his ilk are hilarious. I’m so pleased they’re going to be campaigning for the Tories in the next election. Can you imagine the number of voters they’ll put off. “Foxes have to be killed to stop them killing game birds – that’s our job!” “We only kill animals for their own welfare”. Priceless.

    Hunting is not just a class issue though. Working class animal abuse is equally as wrong as any other sort – have you met any terrier men? That said, hunt meets are the only place I’ve actually seen someone tug their forelock outside of a period drama on TV.

    I was unable to find any references that indicate badger numbers are rising. The only information I could find suggested that over the last ten years there has if anything been a small decline in numbers.

  • Phil

    I completely agree. The argument about Game birds is ridiculous. Shooting game birds should be illegal.

    Any control of will animal populations must be banned as it is totally unnecessary and cruel. Wild animal populations should be allowed to find their natural balance. THAT is nature’s way.

    The hunting act must also be tightened so that all dogs should be kept tightly under control. It is impossible to take a dog out into the countryside and let it run around in an uncontrolled manner without it disturbing wildlife.

    Dog owners should not be allowed to take there dogs into coverts where foxes, deer and badgers might be encountered.

    The fact is that wild animals see dogs as their predators it is totally wrong that we put these creatures in fear of their lives.

    The hunts have continued running amok with packs of dogs through the countryside. This is an utter disgrace. These people are idiots and it should not be allowed. It is an insult to the law and to the Labour MPs who fought so hard to get rid of them.

    We must move forward and urgently strengthen this law now. Time is running out fast.

    I am amazed that MPs are not prioritising this issue.

  • Phil

    I completely agree. The argument about Game birds is ridiculous. Shooting game birds should be illegal.

    Any control of will animal populations must be banned as it is totally unnecessary and cruel. Wild animal populations should be allowed to find their natural balance. THAT is nature’s way.

    The hunting act must also be tightened so that all dogs should be kept tightly under control. It is impossible to take a dog out into the countryside and let it run around in an uncontrolled manner without it disturbing wildlife.

    Dog owners should not be allowed to take there dogs into coverts where foxes, deer and badgers might be encountered.

    The fact is that wild animals see dogs as their predators it is totally wrong that we put these creatures in fear of their lives.

    The hunts have continued running amok with packs of dogs through the countryside. This is an utter disgrace. These people are idiots and it should not be allowed. It is an insult to the law and to the Labour MPs who fought so hard to get rid of them.

    We must move forward and urgently strengthen this law now. Time is running out fast.

    I am amazed that MPs are not prioritising this issue.